Most of the time, when we talk about marketing, we focus on strategy, tools, and best practices. But what we don’t talk about nearly enough is how marketing feels.

For so many creative freelancers, marketing can be a source of anxiety, fatigue, and even shame. The pressure to show up everywhere, say the right thing, and stay “visible” at all times isn’t just unsustainable—it’s exhausting.

That’s why I was thrilled to have this conversation with Maegan Megginson on her Deeply Rested podcast.

Maegan and I explored not just the how of marketing, but the why—and how to build a marketing practice that actually supports your nervous system, your energy, and your creativity. We talked about rest as a business value, and how marketing can feel aligned, relational, gentle -- and maybe even feed and fuel you. (That's how it is for me, so I know that's how it can be for you too.)

Here’s what we covered:

• How to stop pretending and market like yourself (12:07)

• The three tools of the Simplest Marketing Plan and how they work together (25:04)

• Why "word of mouth" isn’t actually a marketing strategy (26:22)

• How to do targeted outreach without feeling icky (38:35)

• The power of forgetting (aka how to stop obsessing over responses) (46:52)

If you’re craving simplicity, ease, and a calmer relationship with your business, this episode offers a fresh and grounded perspective.

🎧 Listen to the episode or watch it here.

If you like what you hear, listen to Episode 522, my conversation with Maegan on the Marketing Mentor Podcast.

And here's the full transcript

[00:00:00] Maegan: Today's episode is about marketing. If that word makes you wanna skip this episode, please don't. Stay here. I know marketing can feel really stressful and overwhelming, the opposite of being deeply rested. If you're anything like me, you are way more comfortable working with your clients than you are marketing, putting yourself out there, being visible, and networking. We know that these actions are crucial to the success of our businesses, but we avoid them like the plague because they're scary and stressful. Good marketing requires structure, strategy, focus, and courage. Some of those things are not my natural gifts, but I know that I need to do it, and I want to do it with more ease.

[00:00:44] Today's guest is going to help us bridge this gap with her framework, the Simplest Marketing Plan. Ilise Benun is a business coach for creative professionals, a national speaker, the author of seven books, and the founder of marketingmentor.com, the go-to online resource for creative professionals who want better clients with bigger budgets. IIise is direct, kind, and super pragmatic with almost 40 years of business experience. She is a walking fountain of wisdom, and she's committed to making marketing simple for those of us who are easily overwhelmed. So sit back, relax, and enjoy this deeply rested marketing conversation with IIise Benun.

[00:01:31] Welcome to Deeply Rested, the podcast that helps people doing good work in the world take incredibly good care of themselves. I'm your host, retired therapist and disillusioned business coach, Maegan Meson. I'm on a mission to help people like you unlearn the rules that keep you trapped in self-doubt so that you can recover from burnout and finally become deeply rested if you enjoy today's show. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and join our weekly newsletter at deeplyrested.com/newsletter. Now it's time for the show.

[00:02:21] Well, IIise, welcome to Deeply Rested.

[00:02:25] Ilise: Thank you, Maegan. It's great to be here.

[00:02:28] Maegan: I am so happy to have you on the show, and I am really excited to talk about marketing, which might be a strange thing to hear as a listener

[00:02:39] because most small business owners I know despise the word marketing. It is so scary. It feels so confusing and so overwhelming and it sucks because we know it's absolutely necessary in order for our businesses to be successful, but oof, it can feel really stressful and exhausting.

[00:03:01] But not anymore because IIise is here and you, IIise, have created a framework called the Simplest Marketing Plan, and you are so full of wisdom about how we can market our businesses and be deeply rested, and I am just genuinely so excited to learn from you today. So, thank you for being here.

[00:03:23] Ilise: Yeah, no, my pleasure. I'm happy to share what I've learned in my next month. It will be 37 years.

[00:03:30] Maegan: 37 years of entrepreneurship. Wow, that is so incredible. Okay, well, before we get into the nitty gritty of the Simplest Marketing plan, we wanna learn more about you and how you came up with this big idea. So, I'm going to invite you to join me and take a couple of deep breaths. And then, IIise, I'm gonna hit you with our first question.

[00:03:53] Ilise: Sounds good. I'm ready. 

[00:04:05] Maegan: Elise, Ilise, you have been a business owner for almost 40 years.

[00:04:11] Ilise: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:12] Maegan: Tell me about a time in your life when you felt so overwhelmed with your business that you weren't sure you could keep going.

[00:04:21] Ilise: I actually have to say I don't think I've ever felt that. I've had really good guidance over the years, from people in my network and in my circle, and I worked very closely with a mentor for many years, kind of as a supervisor of my business. I know, you know what that is, right? He was literally supervising my business for several years.

[00:04:46] Maegan: Wow.

[00:04:47] Ilise: And so either I've blocked it out completely, right? This experience of being overwhelmed, I can tell you that I'm gonna be 64 this year, and today, for example, was a crazier day than I like it to be. There was just too much going on and too much back to back, and I've realized, I mean, I used to work that way all the time. I used to have calls scheduled back to back from morning until night and I would take, you know, a little break to walk the dog or a little break to eat and it's not like I didn't have breaks, but I used to go, go, go and it was fine with me and I was making a lot of money and the marketing was working. So that was fine with me, but, as I've gotten older and I've actually evolved my business just in the last two years, really to include other people, because before it was just me doing everything, including the marketing but now I actually have two teams supporting me, one on the back end, one on the front end.

[00:05:54] And now when I do too much in a day, I feel like, no, this is too much. I can't do this anymore. I don't wanna do this anymore. And so, you know, maybe the answer to your question is today.

[00:06:06] Maegan: Okay. I want to hear more about this supervisor for your business in a second, but I'm curious about whether today is an experience like today for you. An I can't do this, or I just don't wanna do this.

[00:06:23] Ilise: Don't wanna do it.

[00:06:23] Maegan: I don't wanna do it. Yeah, so you've been a person most of your life, it sounds like, who's pretty grounded and pretty good at managing your energy.

[00:06:35] Ilise: I think that's true. I'm very disciplined and I always have been. I was raised to be disciplined and to do what needed to be done and not to give in to feelings, if you will.

[00:06:48] Maegan: Oh, interesting.

[00:06:50] Ilise: Yeah, and so, I guess you could say I've been grounded, although I was a lot less grounded when I started, and I was really much all over the place trying to figure out what I was doing. And it took me a good 10 years, actually to really focus in and figure out who my people are, what they need? What are their pain points? How do I speak to that in my marketing? Where do I go so that I can meet them in person so I don't have to be so all over the place? And that, of course, is part of the Simplest Marketing Plan. It's what I advise, it's what I've learned,through experience. And once I settled into that, then the pipeline just stayed full and there was a lot of work and it kept evolving, but yes, I mean, I've definitely gotten more and more grounded and more boundaried as I've gone along.

[00:07:45] Maegan: Okay, you are piquing my interest about the simplest marketing plan, and we're gonna talk about that in a couple of minutes.

[00:07:51] Ilise: No rush.

[00:07:53] Maegan: But I have to ask you a little bit more about this comment that you were sort of trained in your life to not get distracted by the feelings. What do you mean by that?

[00:08:04] Ilise: So, let's see, what's the best way to describe this? I mean, it's part of what I learned from this supervisor, if you will, who was also a therapist of sorts, although his modalities changed over the years as well, but he would make a distinction between fake feelings and real feelings and fake feelings being the drama that we let invade our lives, which is different from, a feeling of gratitude or a feeling of joy or a feeling of real anger versus annoyance, just all the things that we can control about how we respond to something as opposed to what's actually happening and so I think, that's how I've interpreted it and taken it.

[00:09:01] And also again, try to help my own clients who complain about their clients or that their clients haven't responded to them. But you know what, that's the way it is these days. People just are not very responsive. So you can either get annoyed about it or you can say, all right, that's the way it is. What can I do? And I find that action is like the antidote to feeling often and if you're overwhelmed by a feeling, then maybe there are some simple actions we can take that will distract us in a way from the feelings and start something moving and then with that movement, it's easier to let go of the feeling and then something else is happening and you know then it's a totally different moment.

[00:09:53] Maegan: Would you describe yourself as a very emotional person outside of your business?

[00:09:59] Ilise: Mm, I'm not.

[00:10:00] Maegan: Really? And that's been true since childhood? Probably.

[00:10:04] Ilise: Yes, and you know, there are pros and cons to everything.

[00:10:07] Maegan: Yeah.

[00:10:09] Ilise: Right, and I'm actually reading The Body Keeps the Score.

[00:10:13] Maegan: Yes, Bessel van der Kolk. We know him well in this world.

[00:10:16] Ilise: Yes, I thought you might. And so I imagine there was some kind of trauma very early on. I have no idea what it was, but you know, my reaction has always been denial basically, and not let the feelings in. So again, sometimes it's helpful and sometimes not so much.

[00:10:38] Maegan: Thank you so much for sharing that. First of all, I'm like, oh, now we're getting somewhere. This is interesting. For folks who are listening and not watching this on YouTube, you're doing this thing with your hands, right? This sort of balancing, there's this and there's that, and I'm finding myself feeling really curious about that as I'm listening to you right now.

[00:10:55] The way that we can lean on each other and learn from each other, those of us who are working with emotion and those who are working more with cognition, right? Working more with practicality. So here you are, this person who by default, you would not describe yourself as highly emotional or very in touch with like layers and layers of feeling, but you've learned this way to discern your emotion that I think is really interesting.

[00:11:23] With the help of your supervisor, you've learned how to discern what is a panic response that doesn't need any space or attention and what kind of feelings can I analyze and ask myself, okay, if I'm feeling X, what action can I take to get Y results? So you've learned this very practical, cognitive way to respond to your feelings to move your business forward as a person who doesn't spend as much time swimming in the emotional waters as say I do. I think we have something really important to offer each other here in this exchange. Does that make sense?

[00:12:06] Ilise: Yes,

[00:12:07] Maegan: Yeah.

[00:12:09] Ilise: I do have a response to oh, please, because I think the distinction I'm also making is between happening now and what happened way back when,

[00:12:21] Maegan: Uh Huh

[00:12:22] Ilise: If there's panic about, you know, like a marketing emergency, I get calls from clients about what we might call a marketing emergency, which it's not life or death, right? Marketing emergencies are not life or death, but it feels that way often.

[00:12:39] Maegan: Yeah.

[00:12:40] Ilise: And so what I have done for myself and what I try to also help my clients do is distinguish between, okay, this feeling you're having is not actually happening right now. It's a response to something perhaps very old that you're not gonna be able to do anything about right now. But let's focus on, I'm sure there's like some technical term for this, but you know, let's focus on what's actually happening right now. And again, the action, what can we do about it? If anything,

[00:13:09] Maegan: Yes. May I offer you my frame for that? So back when I was a therapist, I was an emotionally focused therapist, so my life was emotion for a very long time. Still is always will be, I'm sure. But there's this really simple concept, called primary emotion and secondary emotion.

[00:13:29] And secondary emotion is the emotional reaction that we have to a more primary experience. So as I'm listening to you, the lens I'm filtering that through is that as business owners, we wanna catch ourselves when we're feeling reactive emotions, right? Things like panic or shut down or anger or annoyance, right?

[00:13:53] These reactive emotions as an emotionally focused therapist, what I know is so helpful in our emotional process is to catch when we're in secondary emotion, and then to get really curious about: what's the primary emotion, what is the primary need or experience that's fueling this reaction? Because 99% of the time those reactions like you're describing are not helpful.

[00:14:18] They contribute to getting more stressed out, feeling more overwhelmed so coming down into the primary emotion, that's where the information lies, right? That's where the compass lives, and maybe down there is what you're alluding to, maybe down in the primary area is my clarity about why I'm reacting this way, or what I need to feel safe, or what I need to help me move in a more actionable direction.

[00:14:44] I didn't expect we were gonna talk about this today, but I love that we are, because I do think it's so important when we're talking about something like marketing, which can feel really emotionally loaded, that we first understand our own emotional relationship with marketing, with visibility, with being seen, with creating new relationships.

[00:15:04] What history am I bringing to this conversation? And once we get clear on our sort of internal relationship with marketing, then geniuses. You step to the foreground to say, okay, now I'm gonna help you get really pragmatic about this. Let's look at what action you can take to move this forward. Tell me how that lands for you.

[00:15:30] Ilise: Well, one other thing I would add is the idea that if we wanna get clear first on what our relationship is to marketing, to me it's more about what we imagine marketing to be. Not usually what marketing actually is for yourself and that's what, that's what I'm fighting against is what you. 

[00:15:52] Maegan: Like what, what do you find most people tell themselves? It means to market their businesses.

[00:16:00] Ilise: Well, first of all, it means bragging

[00:16:03] Maegan: Hmm

[00:16:03] Ilise: And your mother told you not to brag. You're not supposed to toot your own horn. So how can I market myself if I don't wanna sound boastful or arrogant or any of those adjectives with negative connotations,

[00:16:18] Maegan: Yeah, I've heard that for sure.

[00:16:19] Ilise: Right? There's also, nobody wants to hear from me because I don't wanna bother anyone. I'm a burden, right? If they wanted me, they would call me. My work should speak for itself.

[00:16:36] Maegan: Wouldn't that be nice?

[00:16:37] Ilise: They should remember that I exist. I shouldn't have to remind them that I'm out here. I mean, it goes on and on and on, These are the images and the illusions I would say that I have to help people rethink and see, oh, maybe what you imagine it means to put yourself out there is very different from what it actually means, and maybe you can bring yourself into it. Because often people imagine that they have to be someone different or be someone else or be a certain way, and that's not true either.

[00:17:14] Maegan: Not true and it's exhausting.

[00:17:16] Ilise: It is exhausting.

[00:17:17] Maegan: I find that all the time in my work with clients. That often one of the main contributors to burnout is that we're pretending all the time, right? We're like wearing these costumes and acting in certain ways and following certain rules and keeping up appearances is truly a full-time job. I feel much more rested and energized when I just give myself permission to be myself.

[00:17:41] And not put any rules or parameters around that. I really appreciate what you're saying that before we even talk about the simplest marketing plan can you pause and really think about what stories about marketing, about visibility are you bringing to the table that might be creating layers of undue complication for you and your journey as a business owner and maybe there are stories about, not being too big for your britches, not being braggadocious, not having too much ego, being too shiny. I hear this one all the time, that people grow up in families where they really are actively sent to the background, right? They're actively told, don't take up too much space.

[00:18:28] Don't be too special. Don't have too many special skills. Those are all these ways that we are taught not to take up space. Then there are the business lessons, too. Let's talk about this for a minute. Like the bad business advice about marketing. Something I've heard you talk about before is the belief that marketing means you need to be everywhere and you need to be doing everything. You need to be on every social channel. You need to be at every networking event. Tell me more about bad business advice that's out there about marketing that leads to small business owners feeling really overwhelmed and scared of stepping into the marketing role in their own businesses.

[00:19:08] Ilise: Let me just put a pin in something else so I don't forget to say this also, but we are surrounded by bad marketers, number one, right? We are surrounded and bombarded by people marketing to us constantly. And so when we think of marketing ourselves, we imagine we have to do what they're doing because we don't know there's some other way.

[00:19:32] Maegan: And what they're doing is gross. It makes me feel like mad and also kind of nauseous. So we don't have to do it the way we see other people doing it. I wanna hear your take on the bad marketing advice that's out there for small business owners about that you need to be everywhere, doing everything.

[00:19:52] Ilise: So I think the corollary to that also is I need to take whatever work I can get because I don't know if any other clients or projects are coming along, and that means I can't focus, I have to be everything to everyone, not only being everywhere, and so one of my. I dunno, biggest efforts, if you will, is helping people focus and helping them decide who exactly do you want to help? Who are your best prospects? Who are you best suited to serve? And then let's go find those people and make that argument so that you don't have to be talking to everyone and be everywhere.

[00:20:35] Maegan: Yeah, the power of specificity, getting really clear on who actually do you want to serve, and as you're getting clearer about who you wanna serve, you can then get much more specific, it sounds like, about where you go to talk to those people.

[00:20:49] Ilise: Right, but it's easier said than done because you know, if all I had to do was say, let's just focus, and someone would be okay, good idea. But that is not usually what happens. Usually what happens is, oh, no, I can't, because again, I don't wanna pigeonhole myself. I'm gonna get bored if I keep doing the same thing over and over again. That's the illusion as if every client isn't different, right? As if every project isn't different, as if you can't bring all of your creativity to the ones you are best suited to serve. So it's kind of this, again, it's a big effort to help people understand that there's depth.

[00:21:33] Maegan: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:34] Ilise: Rather than width. The depth is more valuable, I think, because, for example, I focus on creative professionals, right? Those are designers, copywriters, other coaches, videographers, illustrators, anyone who considers themselves creative. That's my focus and yes, therapists could benefit from the simplest marketing plan. There's no doubt the ideas work, but I am speaking to creatives. That means I know where to go to find them. I know what I need to say to let them know that I get them that they can trust me, that I have the experience to help them. You know, one thing I recently heard someone say was that if you can articulate your prospect's problem really well, they will trust you. You don't even need to articulate the solution 'cause that will come later, but if you can articulate the problem, they will say, oh, this person really understands me. And that's the connection we're trying to make with the marketing. The rest is organic.

[00:22:35] Maegan: And that is so emotional. So maybe you are more emotional,

[00:22:40] Ilise: I'm sure I am actually.

[00:22:41] Maegan: But it's that emotional moment of attunement when I am struggling with something and then you as a service provider I'm talking to, can mirror that back in your own words, maybe words that I haven't even been able to find from my own experience. Yet there is something so calming to my nervous system in that moment. It's the feeling of being seen, being understood, and knowing that you belong somewhere. Knowing that like you belong in this person's ecosystem. I agree. It's just such a powerful moment and when it clicks like that, oof.

[00:23:16] It's just gives me full body chills, you know? I'm like, yes, yes, in both directions. When I'm feeling that way with someone I wanna pay for support. And when I can create that experience for someone who's considering working with me, it just feels like we're firing on all cylinders. So I love this vision of marketing as the actions that we take to create more of those moments. That's what we're aiming for here. We aren't just like splashing ourselves all over Instagram because it's what we're supposed to do. No, we're being really focused about what our objective and intentional. 

[00:23:49] Ilise: And strategic.

[00:23:50] Maegan: The balance of these things feels so powerful. We're bringing in strategy, we're bringing in intention, we're bringing in focus, and we're bringing in deep care, right? And passion for the work that we're doing and the gifts that we are here to share. When you get that combination right, I feel personally so energized by the work I'm doing in my business.

[00:24:12] Ilise: Well, that's a really important point actually, because often people think if I get too much work, I'm gonna be drained. I find the opposite is true. If I am working with people who bring out the best in me, then it's energizing. At the end of the day, I'm ready for dancing. I don't know anything.

[00:24:31] Maegan: Yeah.

[00:24:33] Ilise: I don't feel tired.

[00:24:35] Maegan: I mean, like, I can hit a threshold for sure to be clear, but it's like when I know my boundaries, my day is full of people I love and conversations I love, and I feel like I can be my honest, authentic self with each of those people. You're right. I don't feel burnt out. I don't feel fatigued. I feel so energized. Okay, so we're making a case here that good marketing leads to a business that feels so good. It's so energizing. So let's get into the nitty gritty. Tell me.

[00:25:04] Ilise: Okay, and because the reason is because those people, the people who bring out the best in you, they're not gonna fall in your lap. You have to go find them. You have to let them know that you can help them and that's the biggest actually myth about marketing and sales is that word of mouth is the best marketing tool. That's what people tell me when I say, how do you market yourself? When they come to me because they have no clients, I say, well, how do you market yourself word of mouth.

[00:25:31] Maegan: Referrals.

[00:25:33] Ilise: Word of mouth is not marketing. It's gravy. It's what happens to you. Marketing is what you do to get the work that you want.

[00:25:41] Maegan: Marketing is what you do to get the work that you want. Word of mouth is the gravy. Feel the truth of this, IIise, when word of mouth is happening, it means you're marketing really well.

[00:25:53] Ilise: But you can't expect word of mouth to happen for you if you're not also taking action to make people aware that you and your business exist. Because when you're relying on word of mouth, you're basically taking whatever comes, and then you feel at the mercy of whatever comes. You're not doing anything to make it happen, so you can't count on it. So you're always coming from this place of, oh my god, I don't know where the work is coming from. I don't know how to go get it. And that's what I'm teaching, how to go and get the work. 

[00:26:28] Maegan: Yeah, because what you're describing is a trauma response, right? When we are in this place where we don't feel safe, we don't feel secure, when we feel like we don't have that agency and control to take care of ourselves, to meet our needs. We're gonna act a little crazy. 

[00:26:44] Ilise: And we're gonna try everything and flail about.

[00:26:46] Maegan: We're trying to create a sense of safety, but you are saying, calm down, take a breath. Let's give you a plan, let's give you some strategy so that you can create safety in your business with focus.

[00:27:01] Ilise: Yes.

[00:27:02] Maegan: That's really beautiful. Tell me about the simplest marketing plan.

[00:27:06] Ilise: Okay, so the simplest marketing plan is the framework that I've developed over all of these years, and I've distilled marketing to three tools. So you don't have to be everywhere, but you do have to do these three tools and they work together. So you can't just do one. One is usually not enough, and I'll tell you what the three tools and how to connect the dots, because often people do the tools, but then they don't connect the dots between the tools and part of it.

[00:27:41] Part of the problem is a certain impatience because when people. Finally realize that word of mouth is not working and they should probably do a little something to market themselves. Then they're in a place of desperation and they need it to work immediately and marketing doesn't work immediately.

[00:28:00] It takes time and it's all about timing and relationships. And so the three tools are designed to develop relationships, nurture relationships with real people in such a way that when they are in their moment of need, they think of you and come to you and that's when the magic happens. Some people say to me, oh, well I reached out to those two people, or five people and nothing ever happened.

[00:28:30] They never called me back. This is after two weeks. I think instead about what I call newsletter magic. I'm gonna show it to you 'cause it happens to be right here. The very first newsletter. It was actually the second one that I ever sent.

[00:28:44] Maegan: Oh, that's so cool.

[00:28:46] Ilise: 1990. 

[00:28:48] Maegan: 1990. So just for those listening, IIise is holding up in front of the camera, a laminated copy of her very first newsletter. This is your very first newsletter. I love that.

[00:29:01] Ilise: Yeah, so let me tell you what the three tools are and then I'll, show you how they fit together. The three tools are content marketing, what I call high quality content marketing. Not to be confused with marketing content. Marketing content is what's on your homepage and it talks about what you offer and the services that you offer and that's all about you and what you know, but content marketing is about what you know your market needs. That's the distinction I make. So it's all about them. In fact, I often say part of the problem is your marketing is actually not about you, but if you believe that self-promotion and marketing is about you, you're not gonna do it.

[00:29:43] This is one of the illusions that people have about it. Oh, it's all about me. No, it's actually not about you. It's about them and if you can get your mind around that. Then you can do it in a way that feels less personal basically. So it's this weird paradox where you have to bring yourself through it and your personality in, but not make it about you, which takes some doing and some understanding, but that can really manifest in your content marketing.

[00:30:10] So, a newsletter is an example of content marketing. You have a newsletter. I have a newsletter, right? It's the way we stay in touch with people. It's the way we keep our visibility high. It's the way we build trust and credibility and authority. And the main thing I say, people should do a newsletter, because out of sight is out of mind. If you don't remind them that you're out there, I guarantee they will forget you exist. That is just the way things are these days, and it's not personal, but if you stay in touch, then in their moment of need, they will remember, oh yeah, I forgot about her. I should respond to this email.

[00:30:53] That's newsletter magic, and it feels like it's out of the blue because. You didn't know they were in their moment of need, but it's not because you've been staying in touch and building this credibility with them and trust in their mind, but you're not aware of it. And I think that's another issue is that people can't see what's not there, if you will. I think it's called absence blindness. It's one of those wonderful biases, we can't see what's not there, but we have to trust that people are actually receiving our information and it's working on them even if they don't respond.

[00:31:31] Maegan: I believe in newsletter magic, so yes. I feel that the truth of that in my own business, that just the other day I was doing a discovery call with someone who reached out about working one-on-one with me, and she said, you know, I've been reading your newsletter since 2019. It's 2025 right now and I have never heard from this person before. This is the first time we've had a real conversation and I think it, goes to show that what you're saying is so true. We need a way to keep in touch with people who are interested in what we have to say and what we're offering and also that relationships, like you said earlier, take time. Real relationships, that people need hundreds of touchpoints with you and your work before the timing is right for them to make a connection with you. I always say to my clients, the two most valuable qualities you can have to be a successful business owner are patience and persistence.

[00:32:25] You have to be patient, you have to be persistent. That's the only way forward and when you find ways. With the simplest marketing plan to be organized and focused about your marketing efforts, you can be patient and persistent also really well rested because you're not overextending yourself, you're not overwhelming yourself. I love this. This is just so helpful and practical. you have any other suggestions for people who maybe don't resonate with the newsletter, that doesn't feel like the right fit to them? What are some other ways that they can have a similar effect? Staying in touch, staying front of mind with the people who might one day wanna become their clients?

[00:33:03] Ilise: So, let me give you the other two tools first, because those kind of answer that question. So there's content marketing and then there is strategic networking.

[00:33:16] Maegan: There we go.

[00:33:18] Ilise: Now strategic networking is what I meant when I talked earlier about finding my people so that I don't have to be going everywhere. I found very early on in my business a magazine called How, and it was a magazine for graphic designers. I reached out to the editor and I had never written anything before and I just thought, I need to write an article for this magazine because it was all about the business of graphic design and the practical aspects of graphic design.

[00:33:47] and already by then I was like, that's my thing and then I started writing a column actually for them and then they started hosting events and conferences. And so I started speaking at these events and for 25 years that's where I found my people. So the point is, when you know who your people are and where they go, you can go there on a regular basis and keep nurturing and deepening the relationships.

[00:34:19] Maegan: Great. Okay, so we have tool number one, content marketing, example, newsletter magic.

[00:34:25] Ilise: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:25] Maegan: Tool number two, strategic networking example. Who are your clients? Where do they go? Can you go there? Can you go there and truly be open to creating relationships? Because hey, introverts, it doesn't count if you go to a conference and never leave your hotel room, which I've done before.

[00:34:41] Ilise: I have, too, actually.

[00:34:43] Maegan: It's finding the right spaces that I'm gonna feel energetically comfortable in personally, or my clients are also gathering, and then allowing yourself to be open and present. Do you have any quick tips before we move on to the third tool about how to navigate those spaces? When you're in a large gathering of people that you know are good fits for you, how do you recommend showing up in that space specifically to network?

[00:35:11] Ilise: Two thoughts. I'll say them both so I don't forget them. One is about curiosity and the other is about pretending you're part of the staff, essentially giving yourself a job to do. I'll start with that one because if you go to an event and just offer to help, if they're setting up chairs or putting handouts on chairs or doing anything. If you can, again, take action, keep yourself busy, instead of letting whatever's happening in your head, flood into your body and, chase you up into your room, let's say, or into the car to run home, then that will bring you into contact with people in a much more organic way. Do you want one of these handouts? Or, you know, do you wanna sit over here or this chair is fluffier? Make stuff up. Use your humor. It doesn't matter, but give yourself a job. That's one really good way to do it no matter where you are. The other thing, and you can do this,as part of your prep, and you can even use AI as part of this, which is to go with questions, right?

[00:36:23] Lean into your curiosity. Pretend you're a journalist. Pretend you're writing content about the event or about the people that you're going to meet and you know what? Do it. Write content about the event and just go with your newsletter.

[00:36:40] Maegan: Your newsletter.

[00:36:41] Ilise: Exactly. This is what I mean by connecting the dots, but between the tools, right? So just don't worry about, what am I gonna say? and they're gonna think, what is she doing here? She's not one of us. Like all of these fantasies that come into people's minds. Put that aside. Be patient with yourself, be gracious with yourself and just say, what questions do I sincerely want to ask these people who could be prospects? And don't look at it as I gotta make a good impression with this person or with these people, but just again, go with your curiosity and let whatever happens, happen, and then take that content back and turn it into something that you can use to follow up with them. Because follow up is really the key to networking especially.

[00:37:32] Maegan: Yeah, there have been events I've wanted to go to in the past and it's felt a bit overwhelming to me just to walk in. So I've called the business bestie and been like, hey, I really wanna go to this conference. I'm kind of stressed out about it. Do you wanna come with me? And that's been a great tool for me too, as long as it's a person who's actually gonna help me do what I need to do there. And not be like, you wanna go have drinks at the pool?

[00:37:55] I mean, yes, but I actually need to meet some people and, I love the way that you're giving us all of these entry points to strategic networking. Maybe it's a conference, but also I'm guessing strategic networking could be one-on-one relationships to coffee dates, you know, meeting people in a more intimate setting. You're giving us all of these entry points to make networking accessible, which I think is so important for people with different energy levels, people with different types of neurodivergence. This is excellent. We have content marketing. We have strategic networking. What is tool number three?

[00:38:32] Ilise: So, tool number three I call targeted outreach and it's not a euphemism, it's a version of warm outreach, right? Warm emailing, warm calling It is when you, this is the beauty of it. You choose who you want to work with, who you want to serve, and then you don't just hope they find you somehow, You have to reach out to them and more than once, right? More than twice. More than three times usually. My plan has a four-step outreach campaign, and so the idea is that you reach out to people and this is one of the hardest, but it's also one of the most effective actually, if you've chosen the people well, because it's hyper-personalized, super customized.

[00:39:19] You do your homework, you make a human connection, you talk about them, not about you. You talk about their pain points, not so much about what you do to cure them. You help them understand that you value what they do, you really think you can help, and you'd love to see if there's an opportunity for that.

[00:39:39] Maegan: Can you give me a specific example? Let's say it is a business owner who works with designers. Let's say it's a web designer and I'm that web designer's ideal client. I'm a coach. Tell me what you might say to me, what kind of email could I expect to get from you?

[00:39:58] Ilise: I wanna like receive it in my mind right now and see how it feels. The subject line says, you don't know me yet.

[00:40:05] Maegan: No, I'm intrigued.

[00:40:06] Ilise: And…

[00:40:09] Maegan: I'm either intrigued or creeped out, so it's gonna depend on what's inside of the email.

[00:40:14] Ilise: That's fine and inside it says. Hi Maegan. You don't know me, but I've been looking at your website and I love what you're doing with your Deeply Rested podcast, and I love your lead magnet and the way you make it super visible for people to sign up for your newsletter. So I signed up for your newsletter, but I also notice that on this page there are some things that perhaps you could use some help with. It looks like you haven't updated your website in a couple of years, and I'm wondering if you've been thinking about doing that and just haven't been able to find the right resource yet. If that's the case, I'd love to chat. If not, I'll stay in touch. Here's how I do that with my newsletter, and if you're not interested, just let me know and I won't bother you anymore.

[00:41:11] Maegan: Okay. I'm having so many feelings about this.

[00:41:13] Ilise: Tell me..

[00:41:15] Maegan: First of all, I'm not creeped out, so thank you very much. Too many years as a sex therapist, IIise. I got a lot of questionable with seemingly innocent subject lines um, but, Okay. So I opened the email. I read it. Thank you for playing this game with me, because I get so many “cold outreach” emails, and they are terrible, right? They are so bad. They're laughable almost how bad they are. It's like they spell your name wrong. It's obvious in the email that they've not read about who you are at all and this is like the same copy pasted template they're sending and it does to me feel like a violation. It feels aggressive. It feels like someone is not honoring my boundaries. 'Cause they just keep messaging no matter how many times you tell them to stop. So that's the feeling I have in my body. When you suggest this cold, sorry, what did you, did you call, you didn't call it cold outreach, targeted outreach.

[00:42:09] I'm gonna write that down. 'cause that alone feels like a good reframe away from cold outreach, targeted outreach. When I get these cold outreach emails, they feel so impersonal. It doesn't feel like there's anything actually targeted or intentional about them. The email that you just read to me that I opened in my inbox felt human. It felt like the person who sent it, first of all took some time to actually get into my world and sign up for my newsletter and when I get emails like this, like the one you're describing, sometimes I wanna respond even though I don't need the service. Just 'cause it's so nice for somebody to be like, I listened to this episode of your podcast.

[00:42:52] I read this blog on your site. Here's why they mattered to me. Here's why I'm into what you're doing. Here's what I do. Can we collaborate? Do you need support? There's something about that just feels so good to receive and when I don't need them in that moment, I'm gonna add them to my own personal Rolodex so that I know this person exists in the future.

[00:43:13] So yeah, just receiving that right now, I am reminded that these really human interactions feel good and I'm also honoring. How much courage it takes to send them. I don't do this very often because it feels a little scary. It's like asking somebody out on a date, and oh. It's what if they reject me or what if they never respond? So tell me how you coach people. Okay, there we go. I'm gonna say, how do you coach your clients through managing their emotional reactions to putting themselves out there in such a vulnerable way?

[00:43:47] Ilise: So two ideas. First one is about practice prospects and the other is the power of forgetting. So practice prospects are people you don't care about that you practice on. So you send these messages to people and you decide who you don't care about, right? Where the stakes are really low, or maybe you think they would never say yes to you, but they might, or they're too far away or you're really not interested in them, but there's nothing at stake. Basically, you practice on people or companies with whom there is nothing at stake, so that you get the actual experience of what it's like to send a message to a stranger and not get a response, because that's the reality. Most people don't respond, and that's fine. I don't care. It doesn't hurt.

[00:44:36] Maegan: Hmm.There are so many people listening to this right now who are like, damn, how different my life would be if I had IIise's ability to not give a damn. I love it. It's such a great muscle to exercise, right? This muscle of it's okay. It's not personal. Some people respond, some people don't. Some people say yes, some people, no. The better I get at this myself, I'm finding the more ease that flows into my business because I'm not personalizing everything and I am being more courageous in how I put myself out into the world.

[00:45:10] Ilise: And this is where you have to remember that it's all about timing, because as you said, if I didn't need this service, then I may not respond, and yet I wanna remember that this person exists. That's where the newsletter comes in.

[00:45:27] Maegan: That's where the newsletter comes in and I love inviting, I think you said this in your example email just now, but adding if now isn't the right time, here's a way you can learn more about me and what I'm doing. That's really bold, right? And not a lot, I don't know if I've ever gotten an email where someone proactively said, if now's not the right time for us to connect, I would love for you to subscribe to my newsletter. Like, oh, that's a really great idea and it's just an invitation. I'm just inviting you to join my newsletter and then my work emotionally is not to take it personally if you don't, or not to take it personally when I see that you unsubscribe, which is really hard, but I'm working on it.

[00:46:03] Ilise: I never look at who unsubscribes.

[00:46:04] Maegan: It's, it's…Don't. I am never glad after I look, do you know what I mean? I'm always like, why'd you do that because now you're going down a spiral. Okay. Alright. Content marketing, strategic networking, targeted outreach.

[00:46:17] Ilise: But let me give you the power of forgetting

[00:46:19] Maegan: My gosh. Look, I forgot about the power of forgetting.

[00:46:23] Ilise: That's kind of what you're, what I'm suggesting actually, because the trick to not taking it personally and not thinking people are ghosting you and all of those fantasies again that go on, is to forget and so the idea is that you send out, and in my program the simplest marketing program, twice a week we come together to do co-working where people do their outreach together so that they're not so alone in doing it. 

[00:46:52] Maegan: I mean, I just felt like my whole body relaxed a little bit as you said that.

[00:46:56] Ilise: And then at the end, I remind people about the power of forgetting, which means, okay, everyone, you just reached out to, forget about them until next week. Don't obsess about whether or not they're going to respond to you. Move on to something else and the few who do respond, you'll be thrilled because you totally forgot about them and then here they are.

[00:47:19] Maegan: Oh, IIise, I love this so much. I'm laughing 'cause this is like such a tall order for so many people, but what it's reminding me of actually that I love, so one of my favorite things about being a small business owner, IIise, is that I really believe our businesses are a playground for us to work out all of our stuff, to heal our wounds, to have corrective experiences, to move through our own personal growth journey. Our small businesses allow us to do all of that while getting paid to do our jobs and I adore that. I think it's the greatest privilege of being a small business owner, and this is a great practical example of that, if you are a person like me. Who struggles to forget.

[00:48:05] Who's a person who is working on not personalizing this kind of stuff quite so much. People saying, no, people not getting back to you, people unsubscribing from your newsletter. This is a great way to really work on healing that wound inside of yourself. This is a practice ground. Sometimes I have to apply those lenses, IIise, to things that feel hard for me in my business, to motivate myself, to do them, to not avoid them. It's, Maegan, if this is so hard for you. This is something that you need to address. This is something you need to heal in your life on a bigger scale. So let your business be the place where you get to practice and you get to have reparative experiences. So I really do think your offering with the power of forgetting and practicing every week, sitting down, doing the courageous thing of sending the targeted outreach, and then practicing the power of forgetting. Rinse and repeat. We are really giving ourselves an opportunity to grow our businesses strategically and intentionally, while also healing those wounds inside of us that make us feel, you know, too small, not enough, too much, you know, scared of rejection, whatever it is. This plan could really help you work some of that stuff out.

[00:49:16] Ilise: It does if you let it.

[00:49:17] Maegan: It does. If you let it. I just wanna let that sink in.

[00:49:21] Ilise: Actually, because the metaphor that I often use is not the playground, but I like that one as much as a laboratory. A laboratory for your professional growth. Yes, of course, but also your personal growth. That's how I talk about it, I love you adding the idea of actually healing some of those injuries or traumas. 

[00:49:43] Maegan: I believe that with every ounce of my body, the idea coming from the therapy world, the healing world of having reparative experiences. So for example, maybe I felt rejected a lot as a kid, and I have a lot of rejection wounds, some very sensitive to being rejected. Okay, I can have reparative experiences in my targeted outreach of being rejected and really experiencing with the support of you and the community experiencing that I'm okay and just because that person said no to me doesn't mean that I am not fill in the blank, enough. I'm loving that we started this conversation around like, oh, you know, you're more of a cognitive person than an emotional person, but actually in the simplest marketing program you've created, a therapy incubator. You didn't realize that's what you were doing, but that's what I'm hearing, that there is tremendous healing potential in doing this work.

[00:50:37] And I love that you have this program because this can be really hard work to do alone, especially when you are bringing a lot of your emotional history into the mix of doing it in community and then having you there as a guide. I'm imagining that people have way better results when they do it in community versus when they try to do it solo.

[00:50:59] Ilise: Yes, totally and I like to say marketing works when you do it and when you do it right, and right is, you know, variably defined. But in this case, with the community, with the guidance and just with the repetition of practicing over and over and getting it into your body, basically.

[00:51:18] Maegan: I am wondering if you have any resources or where people can go to learn more about the simplest marketing plan specifically because I'm putting myself in the shoes of a listener right now, and if I were listening to this conversation and I were taking notes, I was like, content marketing, strategic networking, targeted outreach. It would feel like a lot, it does not feel simple when we're talking about it all in, you know, one 45-minute podcast interview. So, do you have any resources to help listeners really understand how to make this process simple?

[00:51:51] Ilise: Yes, first of all, I highly recommend that people sign up for my quick tips because in each of these quick tips, that's my newsletter, I give just one simple tip that begins the process of just understanding how it all works and I will share that link with you also. When you sign up, we also offer the one page version of the Simplest Marketing plan. I call it the weekly Marketing Schedule and it's all on one page, and it just helps you organize what you're gonna do every day with the examples of what's available within the context of the three tools. So I think that's a good way to start and then, from there, you'll just learn more through each quick tip.

[00:52:37] Maegan: And you sent me this one pager. I looked at it, it's been a minute now since I looked at it, but it was so lovely. It was so simple. And am I remembering correctly that you have written on that form schedule 30 minutes a day?

[00:52:48] Ilise: That's right.

[00:52:50] Maegan: Okay, so maybe we can just plant that seed. For people listening that you can do this three-step approach in 30 minutes a day. This is advice from Maegan now, like if 30 minutes a day feels like way too much, then take a breath. It's time to reexamine some priorities because I think this is the place where we wish we could do less, but like working up to 30 minutes a day marketing your business is such a reasonable expectation, such a reasonable ask.

[00:53:18] Ilise: You could also start with 10 minutes a day.

[00:53:21] Maegan: Can start tiny.

[00:53:22] Ilise: Go on LinkedIn and comment on someone's post for 10 minutes.

[00:53:26] Maegan: Yes, I love that you give so much permission and just knowing that you're working up to 30 minutes a day. You don't have to start there. You're gonna start where you're at, but you are gonna work up to being a business owner who really prioritizes marketing in a bigger way, in a more intentional way. And I'm so grateful, IIise, that you exist and that you're here teaching us how to do this with just this no-nonsense, very clear, pragmatic approach. Sometimes being deeply rested is about getting deep, deep, deep into the spiritual, psychological, emotional stuff, and sometimes it's about turning the volume down on all of that and just being cognitive and pragmatic. And you're such a gift that you're bringing that to us in this very accessible way. So can you just please tell us the link where people can join the quick tips and get this one pager?

[00:54:19] Ilise: Yes, at marketingmentor.com or marketingmentortips.com, but for your show notes, I'll give a special link for your listeners as well. So, I don't have a URL for that, but I will share it with you.

[00:54:37] Maegan: Great. So you can go to the URL IIise just mentioned. You can use the URL in the show notes. Just get into IIise's orbit. IIise, it's such a gift to have you here, to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Deeply Rested. 

[00:54:54] Ilise: It's my pleasure,

[00:54:55] Maegan: And if you made it all the way to the end of this episode and you loved IIise's conversation, the best, most helpful thing that you can do for us is to share this conversation with one or two colleagues who you think would benefit from IIise's Wisdom as well. So please share this episode, share the simplest marketing plan, and IIise, I cannot wait to talk to you again.

[00:55:20] Ilise: Me too, Maegan. Thank you.

[00:55:23] Maegan: Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Deeply Rested. If you enjoyed this conversation, I would love to invite you to join the deeply Rested Weekly newsletter. You can sign up at deeply rested.com/newsletter. I hope to meet you in my inbox very soon.