As a freelancer, don’t you wonder what your client thinks makes a good pitch (and a bad one)?

That’s just one of the questions I asked Rebecca Matter, President of American Writers and Artists Institute, who hires lots of freelancers and gets pitched every single day.

I jump at every opportunity to ask my clients’ clients all the questions you'd love answers to, like:

• how to tell when the time is right to reach out to a dream client
• what makes a good pitch and a bad one when you do reach out.
• how to spot opportunities
• how Rebecca is using AI these days, and which copywriters AI is replacing. 

We also talked about AWAI's new AI Manifesto...find it here.

This is a good one, so listen here (and below). 

 

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Read the complete transcript here

Hi there, this is Ilise Benun, your marketing mentor, and this is the podcast for you if and only if you are ready to leave the feast or famine syndrome behind. And I mean for good.

As a freelancer, it's not often you get to hear from a client about how they perceive and receive your self-promotion efforts. That's why I jump at every opportunity to ask my clients’ clients all the questions you'd love answers to, like how to tell when the time is right to reach out to a dream client and what makes a good pitch and a bad one when you do reach out. Those are just a few of the questions I got to ask my good friend, Rebecca Matter. She's the president of AWAI, American Writers and Artists Institute, and she hires all types of freelancers. She gets pitched every single day and she does respond positively to some of them. In fact, together we analyzed a recent pitch she said yes to and why. We also talked about how to spot opportunities, how Rebecca is using AI these days, and which copywriters AI is replacing. This is a good one, so listen and learn. 

Hello, Rebecca. Welcome to the podcast.

Hi, Ilise. I am so excited to be here. 

I am too. This is your first time and we should have done this sooner for sure. But this is the first of many, I can tell already. So, before we get too far into it, please introduce yourself and give us a little background. 

My name is Rebecca Matter. I'm the president of American Writers and Artists Institute, otherwise known as AWAI. It's a company that trains copywriters and content writers and creatives. But I'm also a marketer, a copywriter in my own right, and a serial entrepreneur. I can't not be building something new at any given time.

I love that. And how long have you been doing what you're doing? 

I've been with AWAI over 20 years, which is crazy to say, and I've been in the publishing, copywriting, marketing space for almost 30 years at this point. 

I don't think I know what you did before AWAI because I do remember you kind of appearing on the scene way back when, but I don't know where you came from. 

It's kind of a funny story. So, my background is actually in scientific and technical publishing. 

Wow. 

I have a marketing degree, but I worked for a textbook company and that was during the dotcom boom. And so I had the fun and craziness of working with a bunch of different dotcoms in that space that was just at a very exciting time.

And then I decided to change direction and I thought I should practice my interviewing skills. So I found this company called AWAI and I went for an interview and 4 hours later I was still there talking to Katie Yeakle, one of the founders and I fell in love. It was the weirdest experience. I didn't think I wanted the job. At the end, they assumed I was hired. It's like they literally put me to work by the end of the interview. And it all happened so fast. But I went home thinking this is a company where they believe in what they're doing. I could work for something that I now believe in, too. And I could help people change their lives. And I had never in a million years, I had never associated that with work and that was such a life-changing moment for me. 

Wow, that's awesome. And now you're the president of the company. 

Now I'm the president, which is awesome. I'm like the hair club for men guy, the old ad from way back in the days. I'm not only a customer or I'm not only the president, I'm also a client. 

I think Bob Bly used to write some of those ads if I remember correctly. 

I think so. But no, being with AWAI, you know, I came in with marketing experience and within a year I thought, I want this too. I want to live the writer's life. I want to be a copywriter. I want to help other businesses and other people. And so, it's just been a wonderful opportunity to learn and grow. And eventually, I did take the role of president just because I'd been around for so long and I just had so much passion for the company, I just couldn't leave. I had to make it keep going.

That's awesome. And you're a little different from most of the people who I interview on the podcast. Similar yet different. And what I thought would be interesting is to talk to you as the client who hires creatives even though you are also a creative yourself. And actually, I'm sure you know I use that term very liberally because I think anyone who thinks of themselves as creative or a creative fits into that category and I know you do. 

I do and I love that I'm in this position because I have hired and do hire and work with and help other people hire creatives. And I've done this for two decades now. And so I do feel like I have an insight, like we can go behind the curtain with the truth because it's in everyone's best interest and I understand this side so well, the client side, even though I'm also a writer and I'm out in front. I understand this role really well and hopefully I can give you guys some insights into what we're really thinking. 

Yeah, that's exactly what we want. So first, What kinds of creatives or freelancers do you hire? Is it just copywriters or does it go beyond that? 

Oh my gosh, when I think back over the last two decades and even who works for me now. I mean, even the word copywriter, right? I hire and have worked with so many different kinds of copywriters. But I've also worked with designers, web developers, marketing strategists, copy editors, ghostwriters, content managers, and loads of specialists. Even more so recently in certain marketing channels like LinkedIn or let's say lead gen. I would say half of the AI team is actually freelance right now, which is so interesting and you know I love working with freelancers. I think freelancers bring fresh perspectives and I can only speak from the AWAI side but the AWAI team we are a very tight-knit group and most of the team has been with me for a very long time which means that we all have the same blind spots. We all have been doing the same thing for so long. But they're also such hardworking people. So freelancers allow them to extend, you know, their output way past the capabilities that they could have on their own. So I can't think of a creative type that I haven't hired at some point in my career. And like I said, I would say right now the freelancers are matched against the full-time count at this point.

Yep. And two things you said I want to try to connect them. The idea that freelancers bring a fresh perspective – cuz I think that will be news to a lot of freelancers listening, because often they think there's too much they don't know and that holds them back. But sometimes that's the beauty of what you bring – that you don't know. And so you have to understand the way a customer who doesn't know would also understand.

I love that. 

I just want to connect that idea of the fresh perspective to the idea of hiring lots of specialists lately. You and I have talked over the years about the importance of having a niche or a specialty, and so is there a relationship between that fresh perspective and specialists – I don't know, I just feel like there's something there. 

Well, let's start with the fresh perspective side and see where we end up. because you bring up such a good point and it's funny how you and I can think and say something and then you're like hold on to dig into because you made a statement what you don't know is actually valuable and I 110% agree with that. I think that as a business owner or an entrepreneur or whoever you're dealing with, the marketing director, the creative director, we sometimes think that they know it all, have it all. You know, they know everything about the business. And while they do know the business, we're so into what we're working on and we're so close to it. I don't remember what it's like anymore to be brand new. Even though I can try, I can't really get there because my brain has all of the memories and experiences that I've had so far. So, even though I can, let's say, write to or coach someone who's just starting out, I still don't know what it really feels like to be them anymore. I can pretend that I do and I can try, but I don't really. And so having somebody from the outside give that new perspective like, I don't understand this piece. Can you help? Can you explain it in a different way that opens up so much knowledge of where people really are in this journey that helps me reach them. And so what you don't know is actually sometimes more valuable than what you do now. And I know it sounds crazy, but I think it's okay, especially for newer writers, to talk to clients that way. What I bring to your company is perspective from someone that you might have forgotten where they really are in this journey, what it's like to be brand new in this journey. So, I think there's that fresh perspective and then again, we get caught up in our own worlds as business owners and what we're doing and we sometimes lose sight of what else is out there. And so you, as an outsider, as a freelancer, can bring perspective like, “I love what you're doing here, but man, I also love what this company over here is doing. Have you guys ever thought of doing that?” I don't have time to do that research, to be able to go and look at everything that's happening out there. And so that fresh perspective of “have you tried it this way? Have you thought about it that way?” You would be shocked at even the new newbie in all the land. How they can ask a question that just stops a meeting. Like, oh my gosh, how have we not thought of that?

Right. Well, you mentioned the blind spots. 

Yeah. Yeah. That's what we call them at AWAI because we have them. No matter how long I've been doing this, no matter how much experience I have, everybody has blind spots. We have them in all aspects of our life and we especially have them at work. You don't even need a ton of confidence. It's just the the confidence to be able to say, "Have you ever tried it this way?” or “I have a question about this” – that can actually I think demonstrate potential value in a much bigger way than you might imagine. 

And I hear content in there too for freelancers because that kind of question for their own content marketing or that kind of “hey I see this company doing this and it looks really interesting and I don't even know them but here's what they're doing” and just sharing that with everyone in your network. 

It's huge. I've often told creatives that one of the things I would do if I was starting again would be to go to a trade show in my niche and reach out to everybody that I wanted to talk to and say, "I am writing content. I'm writing a special report on marketing in this industry. I'd love to interview you."

Yeah.

And then I would just interview them. And I would publish all of that because we've talked about this before, Ilise, but by talking to somebody about what they know and then turning around and saying, "This is what I've learned from this person," you not only get to claim your own stake as an expert in that space, but you get the glow of the person that you interviewed as well. And so, I think there's amazing content to be had in there. And if honestly, that's interesting. Even if you just thought of those first conversations with a new client from that perspective, whether you get the job or not, you're really doing it for content for your own. I mean, oh my gosh.

Right. Takes all the pressure off. Totally. Totally. And it wipes clean that blank slate, right? Or it fills the blank slate and then you can't use the excuse, "But I don't know what to write or I don't know anything. These people already know everything and I know nothing." It's wild. It's wild. That's one of the best qualities of a really good writer in my opinion, is just curiosity. And so if you can just listen and ask that next question that pops up in your head, that just naturally does, the conversation is always richer and it takes all of the pressure off of you and just allows you to just be curious.

And so I think even just trying to connect it to this idea of having a specialty, which is essentially knowing more about one thing or two things, because sometimes when I say “focus,” it doesn't necessarily mean on only one thing. It just means not on everything. So having a specialty, when you're looking for someone, whether it's a copywriter or a consultant or a coach, how important is it to you that they specialize in something that is relevant to you? 

It's so interesting and I hadn't really thought of it, but I used to never hire specialists. Not intentionally. It was just that most of the writers that I worked with kind of stumbled into my lap, right? Because we train writers and so who's going to be the best advocates and writers for our stuff than people who really know our stuff. And so they would usually start as juniors and then roll up into and learn other things and grow and expand. But lately the way that the marketing channels work now, you know, when I started it was direct mail and then the web came on and that was really exciting, the internet. And so things have grown and now, I mean You used to be able to specialize in “social media.” That's not a thing anymore. Being able to really help a company gain traction in one of the social media outlets is a lot of work. And so I think there's a shift happening even more so. I'm looking for someone who can help me with my LinkedIn strategy. I'm looking for someone who can help me with my lead gen strategy. At the same time, it works the other way too. I recently had a freelancer who came specifically and said, "You all are not doing a good job on LinkedIn." And they said it in a nice way. “Girl, you know, there's so much more opportunity here for you. I'd like to talk to you about this thing.” I wasn't seeking. I had no desire to do anything on LinkedIn. It wasn't even on my radar. And this pitch was so strong that I thought, "Wow, maybe we should. So now I'm kind of going the other direction thinking and I'm seeing people who can specialize, who really can go a lot deeper. Right next to that I have great marketers who work for me who are trying to get into other marketing channels and they're learning. It's great but even they will say, “Gosh if I just didn't have to figure this all out on my own, we could have moved so much faster.” So I do think that there is a huge opportunity right now for creatives. And I know it's scary, but even if you don't only specialize and that's all you do, just to have a starting point for the conversation because to say “I can do everything for you in your niche” is one thing, but to say, “hey, you have a huge opportunity over here that you're not taking advantage of in this one channel. Do you want me to go ahead and do that?” It's a lot easier for me to say yes because it's so specific and we're kind of stepping into a relationship and that person can then offer something else next month and something else the next month and just keep stacking and increasing the scope of the project. But I really feel like, especially today where everything is so overwhelming, marketers are supposed to know so much about so many channels. But the reality is you cannot get traction if you divide, if you spread out that thin. I think there's a really strong opportunity for writers to at least understand that when they're reaching out to someone just to offer one specific thing. And here's the other thing. Even if I say no to that thing, it doesn't mean you can't reach out to me next time with something totally different. And that one might be right. And even as I say that, Ilise, I'm like, man, that's really good because I can get five nos from one client rather than one no. And the chance of one of those nos not being a no is a lot stronger if I have five unique pitches that I'm making to them.

And I'm glad you brought up pitching because I wanted to talk about that. I mean, clearly you're open to a pitch and I would love to analyze what made that the right pitch or a good pitch? 

So, I get pitched every single day. I have emails and DMs and all the kinds of things of every kind of professional service you could possibly imagine, from office cleaning to accounting to legal, and then of course in all kinds of creatives. I engage with some. So, I'm going to talk about the bad ones first and then I'll tell you what made this one so unique.

Most people who pitch me, it's very generic and I can tell it's boilerplate and they don't know who I am. There's some generic line in there about AWAI and that's very easy to dismiss. If you didn't take the time to write me an email, I'm not going to take the time to write you one back. I just feel like that's how it is.

But to the ones that I respond to, 99% of the time their response to my response is generic. And that shocks me every time. Like you had the foresight to customize the first reach out to me. You got me to respond and then you're going to kick it with something generic back. Like I was an active participant in a conversation and that is what crushed is 99% we don't even get past that next email because the minute I get the generic response, “oh, we can help you.” And it's just so nothing specific. I'm really busy. I've got lots of stuff to do and answering this email isn't one of them anymore. What made the LinkedIn pitch strong is that when I said yes, I'm interested. Tell me more, it was a really short email. But it had three very specific things that I could have and I think a lot of freelancers are afraid of this. I could have taken them and done them myself. But again, very busy. That's not not why I hire. I hire freelancers to do the work that – we can do a lot more together than I can do individually or anybody on my team really. And so it was very specific, “This is how I would approach. Boom boom boom.” And I was like, "Yeah, let's do that. That sounds easy." And there really wasn't a lot of risk for me. So, along with the specificity, and the ease of saying yes. I think that's huge. I love that because for me as a client, there's like not a lot of risk there, right? I don't have to go through three rounds of emails or proposals or all of these things. We can just kind of jump in the boat and start rowing together and seeing if we're going in the right direction. There's not a lot of risk. I was reviewing everything before it got published, so I wasn't afraid that something would be said and you know and the cost for that one project was easy enough to say yes and it will grow from there because you know it's going well and that's what got the game started though. So it was the specificity, the ease of me saying yes and the really low risk, again not even just risk of the copy succeeding or failing but the risk of time. I think we forget just how busy…Everybody works so hard these days and having something where they're adding a lightness. I get to do more but I don't have to work harder. It feels nice to be able to try something else that's new without a lot of risk in time on my side because that time would be taken away from something else or someone else in the business. So that was also part of a really good pitch. 

When I think about pitching I think about the parts that the freelancer can control and the parts that the freelancer can't control. And you've described the parts that the freelancer can control. But the part you didn't mention, which I would love to hear your take on also, is timing. It sounds like it came at the right moment where you were either thinking of that and realizing, like it struck a chord, right? It hit a note. You're like, Oh yeah, they're right. I do need to focus on that.

You know what's funny? And now I actually remember the whole story. What happened was we published what's called our Manifesto, because this narrative in the world around AI is just incorrect. So we thought, we've got to take control of the situation and help this industry understand what's happening with AI. So I published the manifesto and I ran a webinar and it was the day I ran that webinar that this person reached out. And so I have to believe that that timing was, "Oh, hey, I got an idea because clearly this is important to her and important to AWAI, this manifesto and this message. I'm going to put this proposal out now." Which is another huge take. Watching your potential clients and seeing what they're invested in can be a gamechanger. Because one of the things I love most about writers who work for me is enthusiasm and honestly likability. Like just get in the boat, let's go. Get excited about what we're excited about. Let's do this together. And so as you just said, timing. I've often said timing is important because a lot of times somebody will reach out to me and my initial instinct is yes, that sounds so cool. But then I'm pulled away by three Teams messages and the next meeting I have to go to and 17 emails and all of the things and I'll wake up at 2 in the morning, thinking, “I've got to get back to that person” and it just never becomes a priority. But this is a good example of timing matching the priority. She recognized – I'm guessing I'll have to ask her now – she recognized that we had a huge priority. And my response was, I'd love to hear what you want to do, what you would do, but here's what I want you to do first. You have to read this manifesto and watch this webinar. And so her proposal, now that I think about it, was very specific: I think we should get that manifesto out there and here's what we're going to do on LinkedIn. And so it was tied to something that I – Isn't that funny? I didn't even remember that.

Interesting. Interesting. Yes. 

But it was tied to something that was priority to me. So that might be something that your listeners could take away. 

Well, let me frame it this way and let you respond because I've been talking a little bit lately on LinkedIn also about the conscious effort to look for opportunities.

Yes, I love that. Right. And so this person was clearly looking for an opportunity. But how else can we say look for opportunities? Like how does one recognize an opportunity? No, that's a really good question. I think it would depend on if I had an ideal set of clients, I really want to work for any one of these companies. I would be watching those conversations. So, I would be looking for product launches. I would be looking for newsletter launches. What is the conversation that they seem to be having again and again? Like, what is blowing up for them right now? What are they putting out there that feels important to you as the viewer and to them as the company? I think those are always opportunities. Anytime something new happens in a company, huge opportunity because they've already invested a bunch of time and resources into pushing something new out and their hearts are in it. I said at the very beginning, I'm a serial entrepreneur. So, my heart is in it at the very beginning and then I jump into the very next thing cuz I love the launch. I love the creation. I love the idea part of it. So, those are really good times to get everyone's attention because they're all into it. But, you could also look for opportunities in just engaging. It doesn't necessarily have to be something so big. I think it's important for you to understand the company's mission – what is it? Not the mission that's on their website, but mission like “what do they stand for? What are they trying to accomplish? What problem are they really solving?” And being able to present opportunities that way. I think that could be one. And then just engaging, like commenting and participating. I hear story after story, I've heard some on your podcast of creatives just commenting on websites, on LinkedIn pages, on things just to demonstrate their interest and expertise and that leading to something that they weren't even – it's not like they were looking specifically for a job at that moment. They were just jumping into the arena and participating actively as though they were a peer rather than someone just looking for work.

And I just want to circle back to what you said this person did and I'm curious if you could share the verbiage, because you said the opportunity they look for is “you could be doing this so much better.”

Yes. Right. 

And yet people are always afraid to say your baby's ugly. We're not saying your baby's ugly. We're just saying you could be doing so much better. It could be so much stronger. So do you remember at all how that was phrased? 

I don't remember specifically, but I'm going to take a guess because I learned something and I know that this creative has also learned from this person. One of our good friends, Andrew Davis, we were talking about script writing. He said his best approach is to go to a company and say, "I like that this is doing A, B, and C. I wish it was doing X, Y, and Z” The spin that I've put on that is oftentimes I will take somebody else's LinkedIn profile. So in this case, I might say, "I'm looking at this other person's LinkedIn profile, and I think that there's a lot here that we could learn from. I love that they're doing A, B, and C, but what they're missing is X, Y, and Z. And I think if we do that on your LinkedIn strategy, it's going to be cute, you know?” So, what I love about that is you don't have to say their baby's ugly. We're taking somebody else's company,

We're also framing it in not just “it's not ugly,” but “it could also be better.” Very powerful in that. And what I also love about this strategy by saying somebody else's, it psychologically puts you in the seat of the judge. You're judging this thing. What is good and what is bad? And we oftentimes talk about demonstrating expertise and what if I don't have experience? And I'm telling you right there, you are the expert because you just showed somebody your expertise in being able to judge what is good. and what could be improved upon. And then your proposal is right out. I can do this for you. I can mimic A, B, and C, but we're going to also do X, Y, and Z, and that's going to make the difference.

I love that. And actually, let me use this as a segue, if I can keep it clear in my mind, to talk about AI. 

Yes. What? Your best friend. 

Exactly. We both love AI and Oops, I already forgot the connection I was making. All right. Well, Maybe it'll come back. But let's just start with how are you using AI for yourself. 

Okay. So for me, I think of it like my buddy. I'm very nice to it. We talk every single day. And I have a lot of different applications that I'm trying. But the thing I do the most is a thinking coach. And that's the only way I can describe it. I like to see how it interprets my requests. So I articulate things one way and it's going to perceive it one way and that's always interesting to me, to see what it feeds back to me based on the way and how I'm asking it and then what follow-up questions it has for me. So whatever I'm working on now, I'm running it through AI not to write for me because we can get to that a different day. I love to write so I'd rather not have something taking the thing that I enjoy away. But I like to see what follow-up questions it has for me, the questions and the conversation that I have oftentimes opens up loops that I have not considered. And even if I don't grab on to that loop or think that that idea that was given to me was good or worth writing about, it opens my mind in a different way that oftentimes leads me to three ideas down the line that I would have never got to had I not opened this loop. So for me, and I think it's probably one of the the most basic usages of AI that I encourage all writers and creatives to do is just put your thinking through it just to see what other ideas and how you can shape the ideas that you're working on in that moment. And I use it for a lot of other things, but that's the thing I love the most and that's the thing that has become a daily practice for me. 

And that reminded me of the connection I was trying to make. So, let's see if I can articulate it because it seems to me you were talking about even if you have no experience, you can be perceived as I like to say “an” expert as opposed to “the” expert, just because it takes the pressure off a little teeny bit. But what I'm seeing happening with the rise of AI is that anyone can ask a question to the chatbot, any of them, but to know whether the AI is right or which of the suggestions it makes are the priority or make the most sense or would be the right best for you. You do have to have a certain expertise. And I am seeing, and I imagine you are too, that even as the clients, our clients, your clients, our clients’ clients, start to see their clients using AI, there's still the need for – some people call it the human in the loop, but there's a need for someone to be the judge.

Gosh, that's an interesting… There's a couple different points there cuz there's the expert, using AI and being able to judge in that moment, right? And then there's those of us who are writing about things that we might not be super knowledgeable about and AI helping to assist with that. So there's a lot a lot there. I'm curious if your angle is more about the creative at this point in that conversation. 

Yes. 

So for me the role of the writer. You know, I think there's a big misunderstanding that companies, business owners, CEOs, dentists, veterinarians, that they're going to be using AI to replace writers. And the best example I can give is if you imagine your veterinarian (or your dentist, if you don't have a pet), spending any time using AI to write their newsletters, do their social media, create content calendars to ensure that their patients keep coming back on regular schedules, to send out renewal reminders and all of that stuff. Why would they do that? Because they don't get paid for that. They get paid when they're tending to their patients in the patient room. They get paid as the business makes money. So, I think I just wanted I know it's not exactly what you're asking, but I do want to reframe this mindset that AI has come in and will replace writers because now people can use AI instead of writers. It's not the case because for one, that's not what they do. They don't. It's your tool. It's not their tool. It's no different. Like now, my dentist actually built my crown in the office using a 3D printer, right? It's giving him speed to allow him to fix my tooth faster. That's his function. AI is your function. It's your tool that you get to use as a creative to make yourself faster. But that's your professional service that you're providing, it's not theirs. So, there's already a disconnect for me on how people think a company is going to use AI to replace them. And then right next to that is the output itself and the judgment of what is good and what is bad. Writers, it's our ideas. It's the control of the machine that is going to lead to good output. But even the output, it might sound good, but it doesn't mean it is good – the articulation of the final idea is everything. One of the examples we've been using internally is someone like a James Patterson or any other bestselling author who turns out tons of books, right? AI is no different than him creating an idea for a book, writing the outline, handing it over to the junior writers, who then writes the first draft, him taking the draft and rewriting it. AI is the junior writer. AI is the person who potentially is putting down the first draft. Now, there are so many usages of AI and you might never use it that way, but it's not changing the industry. The only way it's changing for writers, it's still your idea. It's still your controlling of this machine. And then it is your articulation of the final product that matters most because at the end, it's either going to connect or it's not. And the CEO, the business owner, that's not their job to figure out what connects. They haven't learned that. That's not what's in them. And AI doesn't know that either. It doesn't really understand connection. It doesn't really think, right? It only gives you what you're asking it and what it thinks you want to hear and that's what it's outputting. But at the end, your final articulation and your revision of that and completion of that is what you've always brought to the table. Nothing has really changed in my opinion as far as this world. and what the value that writers bring to it.

I see things changing a bit. I agree with what you're saying. I think what really matters is what works. So, if any copy that someone got from an AI works, then maybe there's something there. But I haven't seen copy that works, right? Especially conversion copy that people actually buy from. So, there's that. But there was another thought. Oh, I know. I was watching a webinar yesterday where they were doing a landing page in 8 minutes flat. And of course, the copy was already written. And I thought that was really interesting because it was just all about taking existing copy and putting it into a landing page. And I feel like the replacement that is happening is with people who never would have paid for copy or creative in the past. Now they're using AI to do what they'd never done before basically. They wouldn't have had the money to spend. They don't have the money to spend. So they're using whatever tool is available. But I think at this point I wouldn't trust my copy to AI.

Oh well. And you brought up an interesting point too because the other big news story and this was when the BBC interviewed me, the New York Times interviewed me, they were all pushing on this idea that companies were moving to AI instead of hiring copywriters. And when we dug into the specifics, what they were talking about was the little tiny projects, the $5, like the Fiverr type stuff. And I said, "Oh, oh, oh, wait a second. I'm teaching people who want to build writing careers, writing businesses. So, we're not talking about the same person. And it was so interesting because they were so stuck on these little jobs. And so, my big takeaway from those conversations was that those people who were paying $5, $10, $20 for copy and content, they never valued the copy anyways. So, just like the person who might not have ever been able to afford anything, it was because they really didn't understand the value of that investment. The person who's willing to only invest a little also doesn't understand the value of the investment. So AI gave them the option to pay nothing and get an output that they also don't value or understand. And so if you don't understand the marketing piece of it and and why good copy works – that's part of the manifesto, it talks about what I believe or what AWAI believes the capabilities are, or the competencies of a writer, as we move into this next age of copywriting. You brought up the point, if it works, it works. Exactly. But you have to understand what works, you know, and somebody who doesn't value copy or content never had an understanding of what the potential could have even been had they had copy and content that was doing the job  – it was to bring them the outcome that they wanted. Whether that was more clients, more leads, closing more sales, whatever it was, they really never understood to begin with what was to be gained.

Yeah, it's so interesting. We are going to have to wrap up this part one of our conversation clearly, Rebecca, but the thought I was just having is that what I'm seeing is that more and more copywriters also need to understand marketing. It's always been that way, right? Bob Bly, a friend of ours, a mutual acquaintance, a client of mine for years and years, has always called himself a marketer/copywriter because he gets marketing and that's why his copy works so well. So more and more I think this is a forcing function for copywriters to learn marketing.

It's so funny because I believe the new role of the copywriter is – it's ironic – it's this one man agency basically who can take on so much. But at the core, it's understanding persuasion, which is copywriting. It's understanding marketing. It's understanding how to write, with or without AI. It's understanding editing. It's always been, whether you're editing your own work or AI's output. And it's the ability to get clients. Success in this business relies on marketing. As my good friend Ilise Benun would say, marketing works if you do it.

That's right. And the foundation of my business is that having a successful business, a business you can depend on, as I like to say, is all about the marketing of it. 

Absolutely. And the irony though is that that is what AWAI, the company that I'm president of, has always taught. It's persuasion, marketing, writing, editing, getting clients. Like, it's always been there. So AI has not really changed it. It's just that we used to maybe step into it and now we're coming out of the gate saying if you want a writing career, this is what you have to know. And so it hasn't really changed all that much, but the opportunity is big for really good writers because all that little stuff, it's all going away. Good writers who are helping companies really do what they're intending to do are always going to be in demand, whether they use AI or not, but they need to help. I mean the know-how to get clients, help your companies that are trying to solve a problem for their audiences and that is your job. your superpower as the copywriter and it is not going to change in this new world with AI. You'll just be doing a lot faster.

All right, so let's wrap it up there. Tell the people where they can find you and the AI manifesto that you referenced. 

So AWAI is awai.com and if you just go to awai.com/manifesto, you will find our manifesto and that is our stance on AI. What the copywriting industry can expect in the coming years, which by the way, people are thinking AI is taking away the jobs, but the reality is the budgets on copywriting services over the next 5 years are going up to the tune of 20 billion more than what have been spent in the past, which is totally counterintuitive. If AI is taking the jobs, why are they spending more on copywriting services? But we break all of that down as well as those four skills that we talked about that you need and how to navigate and position yourself in this new world of AI. But that's it.

All right. Beautiful. Thank you, Rebecca. To be continued, as my mother likes to say. 

Thank you, Ilise. 

So many awesome takeaways in that episode. I especially loved the reframe of a newbie's ignorance of an industry as a benefit and a fresh perspective that could help a new client see beyond their own blind spots. So, be sure to check out the AI manifesto that Rebecca mentioned at awai.com/manifesto. And if you want my help figuring all of this out, take advantage of my free mentoring session. You can find that and lots more resources, including my simplest marketing plan, at marketing-mentor.com. So, enjoy and I'll see you next time.